Earlier this year at the Detroit Switch Workshop, my Partner at The Re-Wired Group, Bob Moesta, and I (Chris Spiek) conducted a live Jobs-To-Be-Done style interview with Eva Tang. During the interview Bob and I use techniques we’ve developed to uncover the story of how Eva came to buy her camera.
To check out the interview: click the play button on the image directly below or continue reading to see the interview transcript.
About conducting JTBD-style interviews:
Interviews help us develop better products: If we can understand the situation that Eva was in before her camera purchase and the progress she was trying to make then we can understand the causal factors that caused her to stop using her old solution and start shopping for a new one. This is critical information whether you are a camera manufacturer or a camera retailer. When we are able to understand what causes people to want to make progress we can use that knowledge to make informed product and marketing decisions; instead of cobbling features and attributes together we can build products that really resonate with customers.
A single interview is a part of a bigger project to uncover your customers’ Jobs: You’ll notice that the interview is almost completely about Eva’s story: her situation and the progress she wanted to make. At the end of the interview we are left with the story of how Eva came to buy a new camera – NOT the Jobs-To-Be-Done of people who hire cameras. Again, we only know the Eva’s story of how she came to buy the camera. If we are a camera manufacturer or a retailer we would not build a new marketing, product or business strategy based only off only Eva’s interview – it would be a part of a more extensive project to uncover our consumers’ Jobs. This project would include several other steps such as: framing the questions that we’re trying to answer, screening & recruiting, completing interviews in addition to Eva’s and conducting an analysis session. Once we understood how our product fits in to our consumers’ Jobs then we could build our marketing, product or business plan – it’d be like having “night vision goggles” for marketing and product development opportunities.
Want to know more about how to conduct a JTBD project? Message me below. Now that you have a sense of where this single interview would fit in understanding your consumers’ Jobs – clear your mind, listen to the interview and try to help us unpack Eva’s story of how she came to buy her camera.
Interested in uncovering your product’s Jobs-to-be-Done?
There are several ways for you to uncover what causes your customers to hire your own product:
- Learn how to start conducting the interviews with the Mastering Jobs-To-Be-Done Online Course
- Want to find out about the next Switch Workshop, how you can hire Bob and I to teach your team or need help applying JTBD to your product?
- Message me in the Intercom button in the lower right hand corner of this page.
Please note the time-stamps in the transcript below are about 1:45 seconds off from the SoundCloud time-stamps above.
Bob [Moesta]: [00:00:00] Every interview starts the same way. We’re doing very early research with a camera company to understand how people find, and buy, and use cameras. And so, ultimately, as a camera manufacturer, we have all these language, but we don’t actually have the consumer’s language, because we have megapixels, and we have, you know, f-stops and all that. But at the end of the day, we’re really trying to make sure we get the consumer language of your story of how you talk about the camera and how you found it, chose it, which one, [00:00:30] all that aspects. So really the best way to think about it is we wanna do a documentary of the notion of when, you know, you found your camera and, basically, how you use it. Okay?
Eva [Tang]: Mm-hmm.
Bob: So it’ll take about 40 minutes maybe. It might take a little bit a longer, but there are no right or wrong answers. If, all of a sudden, you said something in the beginning and that, you know, later you’re thinking, “Oh, no. That wasn’t right. I really did this.” If you remember something more, just change the answer. We want as much truth and reality as possible.
Chris [Spiek]: So, Bob talked about the [00:01:00] documentary thing, right? So there will be times when we’ll ask general questions, “Where did you shop? What models did you look at?” And then there will be instances where we are way down into the detail. So if you’re saying like, “Oh, I was at the store talking with a salesman,” I might say like, “Was it morning, evening? Is this the weekend?” Like I really wanna like grab onto those. So if you can’t remember, that’s okay, but don’t ever get into the position of like, “Oh, that’s such just minor thing, they’re not interested in that,” right?
Bob: Right. And if there’s a question we ask that makes it uncomfortable, you don’t have to answer, like, that question at all. Okay?
Eva: Hopefully [00:01:30] there isn’t but…
Bob: We never know.
Bob: I open the shaving door and I just went…that went weird, okay?
Bob: So let’s start with just, you know, what did you buy, and when did you buy it, and where did you buy it?
Eva: What did I buy? So I bought a Sony A6500 mirrorless camera. I bought it, let me just think about this, the last week of December after Christmas at some point.
Bob: Okay, so was it during the week or during the week? [00:02:00]
Eva: So probably around the 27th maybe? Around there.
Bob: So Christmas was a Sunday, right? So 26 was Monday, so Tuesday.
Eva: Yeah. It was online. And it was on…it’s just this like Canadian Cameras site.
Bob: What’s the name of that?
Eva: Canadian Cameras.
Bob: Canadian Cameras.
Eva: Or Canada Cameras, probably?
Chris: Canada Cameras.
Eva: Yeah, it was Canada Cameras. But before that, it’s because I tried to buy at Best Buy three times and they [00:02:30] botched my order and then I was like, “Forget…”
Bob: Like, what? Huh? Best Buy three times.
Bob: Like online…
Bob: …or did you try to go there?
Eva: No, online. The camera came out December maybe like 7th. So it was…
Bob: Oh, you were waiting for it?
Eva: It was sold out in a lot of different stores.
Bob: Okay. All right. So let’s start with when…how did you take pictures before the camera?
Eva: With my iPhone.
Bob: Okay. [00:03:00] And did you take a lot of pictures or just…you know?
Eva: No, I was never…I was always chronically not taking enough photos, especially with the fact that I usually travel.
Bob: Okay. You travel a lot?
Eva: I try to, yeah.
Bob: Try to. Okay.
Chris: This is like pleasure, business, a mix, or…
Eva: A little bit of both, yeah.
Bob: And so at what point did you start to say, “You know, it’s time to get a real camera.”
Eva: It was actually work-related. So we were doing a video shoot, and [00:03:30] our director was shooting behind-the-scenes footage. So he was switching between cuts from a actual…the video camera to an actual photo camera. And at some point, I was just like, “Josh, how about I just shoot with the photography camera and then you just shoot video, then we have more of both?” And he asked me if I have ever shot with a camera, and I’m like, “No idea, but I probably can figure it out.” So I was…
Bob: When was that?
Eva: September 15th, [00:04:00] around there.
Bob: September 15, okay. Were you nervous when he like handed it to you?
Eva: Yeah, mostly because it was like a $7,000 camera and like a $3,000 lens and I was like, “If I drop this, it would take for it…”
Bob: Did you know that at the time?
Eva: I knew it after I picked it up.
Chris: So he pointed it out it, like…
Bob: So he hands it to you and said, “Oh, by the way, you got 10 grand in there.”
Eva: Basically. I was like, “Hey, by the way, just in case, you know,” I was like, “How much is this? I’m just curious,” and then he told me that, “Yeah, you got 10 grand in your hand.”
Bob: And [00:04:30] I’m trying to figure out how you shoot when you know you have 10 grand in your hand.
Eva: You click.
Bob: You just click?
Bob: So you weren’t really worried about it?
Eva: I mean I was and I wasn’t, yeah. Never…
Chris: Did you do anything to like…is there a strap or like…did you compensate?
Chris: So you just…
Eva: It literally just…yeah, my arm’s really sore but [inaudible 00:04:49] exactly.
Bob: So how long did you have the camera in your hands?
Eva: Well, we had about an 8-hour shoot.
Bob: Wow. So you’re holding this, literally no strap, holding it for eight hours? [00:05:00]
Eva: And I would put it down when I’d get tired, but then I would just pick it right up.
Chris: So help me with, like, how was he planning on doing this before you suggested…it sounds like that your suggestion kinda came out of the blue.
Chris: He was gonna do both? Or what was the…
Eva: So he was switching between cuts. So it’s like one…like it’s like a cut and he would do video, and then cut, he would switch over to the…
Eva: …photography, yeah.
Chris: Got it. So you’re seeing like, “We can speed this up,” or just like…
Eva: Yeah, like, “Hey, we can do both, right?”
Chris: Got it.
Bob: And you were just there to supervise or just there to…
Eva: No. I was like basically the producer on the set because we were doing a product [00:05:30] video.
Bob: Okay, and so tell me about shooting. Is that the first time you’ve shot with a camera like that?
Eva: It’s a definitely a camera like that that…the first time I shot with it.
Bob: Explain it, like almost describe it to me.
Eva: Describe shooting? I don’t know. I was more or less just, at first, just taking pictures, and I think when you start, you kinda just copy, so images that I’ve…I don’t know, the subconscious or conscious, that I’ve liked [00:06:00] before, but they’re mostly portraits of people. There’s two people sitting there interviewing, and then after every shot, after every couple of shots, I would just bother Josh to be like, “What am I doing wrong? How do I do this better? How would you do it?”
Bob: I mean how would you know you’re doing something wrong?
Eva: Well, just in case it’s like the lighting is all blurred out in the back or if it’s like a little bit out of focus. So, yeah.
Bob: It wasn’t on totally automatic?
Eva: It was…it wasn’t on auto-focus. Actually though, it was originally on auto-focus, [00:06:30] and then at some point, I switched over to manual and he was like, “Oh, maybe you should try.” There was an instance in which the lighting…it was just really dark, and then he looked at my picture and he’s like, “Oh, you probably wanna crank the ISO.” You know, I had no idea what the hell…
Bob: What’s ISO?
Bob: Yeah, what is that?
Eva: It’s how you can control brightness. In a setting in which, basically, you control the sensor, how sensitive the sensor is to the existing light. [00:07:00] I know that now. Back then, I didn’t know that, so he taught me how to change ISO, which then turned into a more manual shot.
Bob: So you almost turned it from like an automatic transmission or an automatic car to a manual, and you started to play with all the knobs and dials?
Eva: Yeah, but I basically…it’s almost like a sports manual, I would say. It wasn’t like fully manual. I didn’t really know. I knew the ISO, I didn’t know really what it did. I just knew it made the picture brighter, [00:07:30] that’s about it.
Bob: And it worked.
Eva: And it worked, yeah.
Bob: Did you like the pictures or were they just like…
Bob: Were they better than an iPhone picture?
Eva: They were better than an iPhone picture, yeah.
Chris: So you’re looking at them on the…is the screen…
Eva: Yes, it’s a screen.
Chris: You can tell by the little screen that they’re better?
Eva: Yeah, the screen is probably about a half or two-thirds of this size. It’s a pretty big screen.
Bob: What kind of camera was that?
Eva: It was a Sony A, like, 2.
Bob: The A2? Yeah, yeah.
Eva: Yeah, it was called…is that a thing? Okay, that’s something…
Chris: [00:08:00] Yeah, Roman numeral 2 or…
Bob: Okay, so like the…can I [inaudible 00:08:03] off for a second?
Bob: So, couple things. As you start to watch her, like, she doesn’t know exactly what that camera is, but first of all, she started with a Sony and she bought a Sony. So we can already start to see like how…”Does she actually look at any other brands?” is going through my head, like does she even know what any another brands are? Because she learned it through one person and played with the Sony all the way along, so how do we actually understand like how well does she actually shop? And so is [00:08:30] this all led by a person or is this led by the fact that you’re trying to actually figure out which camera? And so that’s where we’re gonna go next, right?
Chris: So help me with, like, I almost wanna know emotion as this thing starts, so it’s heavy, I’m getting of a bit of like, “I better not drop this thing.” But then like as you start going…so I have a spectrum of this is very task-oriented like, “I just gonna get this done so we can get through this shoot,” to like, I don’t know, dreading it, loving it. Where is your head [00:09:00] at as you start to get into it?
Eva: Sure. So I have always wanted to get into photography, but I never did because, again, I travel a lot, but I also don’t have a lot of stuff and I like that not having a lot of stuff deal. And I travel with a carry-on only, so I know the stigma of the photography world is you have a lot of gear. It’s just an endless rabbit hole that you sort of go down, so I just stayed away from it, because I don’t think it suits my lifestyle. [00:09:30]
And after having shot that that…it was both like I’ve never done it, and I’ve always kinda wanted to do it, shooting with a professional camera. And then having done it, I was like, “Oh, maybe there’s a way to do this in which you don’t go down the rabbit hole of gear potentially.”
Chris: And this is like as your, like, the first couple clicks of the camera? How quickly do you get to that? I’m seeing like two…
Eva: Probably, by the [00:10:00] end of the first day, and maybe it came at a suggestion from one of the directors.
Bob: What do you mean?
Eva: They look at the photo and they ask me if I’ve shot before, and I’m like, “No.” And they’re like, “Well, if you wanna do this, you have a decent eye for it.” And then they started talking about gear and all of that kind of stuff.
Bob: What does the mean, “a decent eye?”
Eva: Like your photos don’t look terrible, I think? I think for the most part, yeah.
Bob: And so I wanna go… [00:10:30] Was you suggesting to take pictures more about trying to speed the process up or you wanting to actually grab the camera?
Eva: Probably 60/40 me wanting me to grab the camera, and then 40 me…
Bob: Like, speeding that up?
Bob: Like, “This is gonna take forever if he’s doing this.”
Eva: Yeah. Well, I mean we can now get more footage than that.
Bob: Got it. So you’re like, “Hey, I can jump in and it’d be kinda cool if I can jump in it.” It was more you were being pulled to the camera as opposed to being pushed to the camera for productivity?
Bob: Got it. [00:11:00]
Eva: That’s right.
Bob: And so as you get there, it’s like, “Oh, this is kinda cool,” and you’re getting into it. By the end, it feels like you weren’t afraid, you were literally like, “This is really cool. Even though I’ve got 10 grand in my hand, and I’m taking as many pictures as I can.”
Bob: And then their feedback at the end was, “Wow. You’ve got an eye,” meaning you don’t take crappy pictures.
Bob: All right. Got it. So why didn’t you run out in September and go buy one?
Bob: The September 15th is when you took those pictures, right?
Eva: Yes. Oh, why didn’t I [notice?] it? [00:11:30]
Bob: Yeah. It took you all the way to December 27th.
Eva: Yeah, it’s a good question. I think I looked…
Bob: You looked?
Eva: …or like browsed a little bit of the different cameras. So I inquired. We were at the end of the second day. I was like, “Hypothetically speaking, if I did go out on this or down this rabbit hole…” And a couple of them had suggested Sony. Well, [00:12:00] because they own Sony. And then I asked about the Canon, Nikon, like, the whole deal. And they steered me away from it just because of the mirrorless aspect of it. So Canon and Nikon make really great DSLRs, but they suggested a mirrorless because it’s a lot lighter, it’s a lot smaller, the shape of it and the form factor, so it’s a lot more attuned, I guess, to traveling and [00:12:30] in traveling light, so they suggested Sony. So I had probably looked at the Sonys, the A72, or was it A…no, the A2.
Bob: A2s, yeah, A2.
Eva: Yeah, was like just ridiculously priced like for somewhat…
Bob: How much?
Eva: I think it’s, like, 2,500. Maybe 3 grand and I was just like, “This just makes no sense for someone who has never picked a camera.” [00:13:00]
Chris: But that’s what you were shooting at?
Eva: That’s what I was shooting with. Yeah, and then so I looked at…
Bob: And that’s the body only, right?
Eva: That’s the body only. It’s the body only. So then I looked at the next level down, so that’s the 6000 series and they had recently…like I had read really good reviews about the 6300. And then I saw…I don’t know where I saw this, maybe on the Sony website that the 6500 [00:13:30] was coming out in December, so then I was just like, “Okay, great. I can probably wait on this.”
Bob: How much was the 6500?
Eva: Thirteen hundred.
Bob: So about half the… And how much was the 6300?
Eva: 6300 was $1,000. Yeah, it’s a couple of hundred dollars.
Bob: And what’s the difference between the 63 and the 65?
Eva: 6500, supposedly, it’s supposed to be faster, and the battery…
Bob: What does that mean [00:14:00] “supposedly?”
Eva: Well, the specs say that it’s supposed to be faster.
Bob: Faster at what?
Bob: Which means what? I don’t know what that means.
Eva: So when you…it’s mostly for video, but when you take a lot of video, you don’t have to wait a long time in order for the camera to stop processing and storing.
Bob: So help me understand like what do you…you travel a lot. How are you gonna use this thing? What pictures? [00:14:30] How do you see this fitting…it’s almost like I see you not focused on the camera but it’s like I don’t see how you’re gonna use it.
Eva: Yeah, so I…let me make sure I make it short. So the travel part…so it’s mostly for videography, less so for photography, but I really like capturing local stories at the places I go to, mostly because I think the perception of a place is usually very different than the actual people that are there. [00:15:00] I recently came back from Medellin, Colombia, and I think like the “Narcos” version of Medellin, Colombia is very common.
And I mean I totally went there because “Narcos” put it on the map for me, right, and it’s very different when you get there. It’s never the same, so I wanna be able to show that instead of just reiterating the same stories.
Bob: Show it to who? Do you share these videos or do you…?
Eva: Yeah, yeah. I mean even if I…like the concept is, like, if I can create a video that can convince my sister, who thinks that I was [00:15:30] going to die going to Colombia, that’s sufficient. Like, that would change her mind slightly that Medellin may be not…
Bob: Did you do video before on your iPhone?
Eva: No. No. I’ve only shot video, like, professionally speaking, like at work, producing video. Yeah.
Chris: So when you got back from Colombia, how did you convince…like, had you taken pictures? What did you do?
Eva: Yeah, I took pictures, yeah.
Chris: And did that tell the story? Were you able to change minds or anything like that?
Eva: Oh, I didn’t get the camera until December.
Chris: But you took iPhone pictures while [00:16:00] you were…
Eva: Yes, I did.
Bob: Okay, and were you thinking, “Boy, I wish I had video?”
Eva: Yeah, I was thinking of that.
Bob: Well, why didn’t you use the iPhone?
Eva: Well, that’s a good question. I was like…I don’t know. Someone else asked me that too. Maybe there’s a stigma in my mind of like the type of video I want to produce based on how, I guess, I started out with video, which was a production.
Bob: So when you went to Colombia and you came back with pictures, [00:16:30] and you showed your sister, was it not…like it just wasn’t…
Eva: You show a picture and then it’s like, “Oh, great. That’s cool.” And then what happens is that I try to then reiterate some of the stories in which I’ve either heard or I’d lived through it or whatever. And it’s just never as like…maybe it’s just my storytelling, but it’s just never as compelling as when I first heard, like, a story from, you know, [00:17:00] let’s say, like, my Uber driver or something.
Bob: Yeah. So just to make sure I got this right, your thought is, “I’m gonna pull this camera out when my Uber driver is talking and basically film him telling me the story?”
Eva: Yeah, I totally did that in Detroit yesterday. That was like when I got here.
Bob: Got it. Got it.
Eva: Yeah, I totally did.
Chris: Wow. We’ll get to that.
Bob: And so…
Chris: Wait, real quick. Is this Medellin conversation with your sister, did this actually happen, like you sat down, went through the pictures…
Eva: Yeah, I showed her the pictures and she asked me like, “Oh, was it really dangerous, [00:17:30] etc.” And then I would proceed to try to tell her how it’s not and she’s like, “Oh, okay.”
Chris: Help me…so September 15th is the video shoot. When were you in Colombia? How far back?
Eva: I landed at November…hold on, November, like, 9th, and I left December 6th.
Bob: And how close were you to buying the A6300 before you went?
Eva: How close was I to buying the…no, not that close. I mean, I thought [00:18:00] about it, but it was like, “God, the new one’s coming out.” That’s basically the end of the thought. And then I was like, “I can probably punt.”
Chris: And then so you’re back on December 6th? I have that right?
Eva: I’m back on December 6th, that’s correct.
Chris: When did you see your sister?
Eva: I see my sister that weekend. So December 6th is a…let me think about this for a second. It’s probably…it’s definitely in the middle of the week somewhere. Maybe a Wednesday or Thursday. Yeah.
Bob: Yeah, and then is there…so this is [00:18:30] like tough, but is there something that you’re thinking, like, going to see your…like, “I really wanna convince her of this,” or is it like, “Am I pushing the story too far?” Because she has said that it’s dangerous going down there, now you got pictures, you’re coming back with stories to tell. Like are you on a mission at this point or is this just like updating her?
Eva: No. It’s mostly just an update. Like, I know it’s coming. Yeah. I wasn’t going to see her necessarily to be like, “I am gonna tell you all about Colombia,” but it’s like, “I haven’t seen you in a month, so I should probably go over.” And I knew, as a byproduct, she definitely… [00:19:00] she’s gonna ask me, you know, “How was the trip?” and etc.
Chris: How many pictures did you have?
Eva: Well, I honestly…let me think about this. If I had to ballpark, like 10 that I showed her.
Chris: And they were all on the iPhone?
Chris: So it was like, “Hey, here’s this, here’s this.” Then you start to talk about what that was and have the conversation.
Eva: Yeah, like I handed it to her and then [00:19:30] she just started to scroll through some of it, and then there would be certain stories in which I would say, “Oh, yeah, by the way, if you didn’t see it, oh, this is really cool because…” That’s what I said.
Bob: Got it. Got it. And at what point were you…this is gonna sound strange, but were you regretting taking video at any point, like were you like…
Eva: Not taking video?
Bob: Yeah, not taking… Like was it when you with your sister you regretted it, or was it like, when you were there like, “Yeah, I should take a video, but nah, I don’t have enough room on the phone,” or… [00:20:00] Again, why not the phone? It’s got a video camera in it.
Chris: What iPhone do you have? I don’t think we ever got that.
Bob: How much memory?
Eva: A hundred and twenty-eight.
Bob: You got a 128-gig…
Eva: But it’s not like all empty. I have no idea how much space is left on the phone, but not so much. I probably regretted not wanting to have the camera to shoot video [00:20:30] in Jardin, Colombia since it’s a small town outside of Medellin. So that was after, let’s say, 9 days in Colombia, 10 days. So I spent a week in Bogota, and then a couple of days in Medellin, and then I went to Jardin for the weekend. You know what? I did take video but with my GoPro.
Bob: You have a GoPro?
Eva: I do have a GoPro. [00:21:00] Sorry, I was [inaudible 00:20:01] registering the whole thing. I was like…
Bob: So wait. Wait a second. How long have you had the GoPro?
Eva: I’ve had the GoPro for about a year and a half? Yeah.
Bob: I’m confused. How much video did you take on the GoPro when you were down in Colombia?
Eva: With the GoPro, I probably took…not a ton of footage but it’s mostly the stuff in Jardin. [00:21:30] Like do you want me to do it in gigabytes?
Bob: No, just like is it…I mean is it just a few shots?
Chris: Hours or minutes?
Bob: Or hours? Or like a couple of minutes or is it like take a little of this, take a little…is it?
Eva: Probably under an hour, maybe like half…40 minutes of video.
Bob: And did you show your sister that?
Eva: No, because I didn’t edit it because I saw her right after.
Bob: You couldn’t edit it.
Eva: Well, I didn’t edit it. Not I couldn’t. So I came back and then as…for me, when I usually shoot GoPro video, [00:22:00] but I don’t edit within the first…I just have to put the video together because there’s all this broken footage of, like, B-roll, and so it’s doesn’t really make any sense. And I just didn’t have time to put it together.
Bob: But random pictures don’t make sense either, do they?
Eva: It doesn’t, but it’s easier to show than to watch, like, a two-minute, three-minute clip that is not succinct in any way, shape, or form, right? Like the camera shakes or it moves over and you’re going to explain…
Bob: [00:22:30] So the thing that I’ve been hearing though is that mostly you’re buying this camera for video, but now you have a GoPro, how is this gonna replace…is this gonna replace the GoPro?
Eva: It’s gonna replace the GoPro I think for the type of photography. For me the GoPro is great if I’m bungee-jumping off the side of, you know, a ravine or something, but for the day-to-day shooting, I don’t use the GoPro.
Eva: Because I have a camera.
Bob: But before the camera?
Eva: But before the camera? [00:23:00]
Bob: So it’s like, “I have a GoPro, I have my phone,” it’s like, “I take a picture, I can use the GoPro,” but it’s like, “No, I’m not gonna do a video of this even though I want to take video of this.” Like the Uber driver in Colombia, why didn’t you pull out the GoPro?
Eva: Yeah, I don’t know. I think it’s the way that GoPro videography looks with like the fish-eye being the only or one of the only defaults.
Bob: Got it.
Eva: It’s not…and, again, because I think most of my [00:23:30] experience with video is at a professional level, so it’s just set in my head up a certain style of video that…
Chris: So there’s literally…like if I can’t have a certain style, I’m just not just doing it. I’m not taking a picture. I’m not taking a video. It’s like…
Eva: Well, the Uber driver thing I definitely didn’t do with the GoPro, but when I shot GoPro video, and I shot photos, like, I would shoot it and [00:24:00] then realize…because you have to edit this stuff afterwards in order to have something, you know, sort of…at least I would wanna produce and put out in the world. So it was only for like certain…and maybe I bucketed the GoPro in a certain category.
It’s like if I’m in the back of a truck and I’m driving up the side of the mountain, it’s like, “Would this be decent footage?” And it’s a certain type of…I didn’t shoot much GoPro video in Medellin, for example. I did in [00:24:30] Jardin because it was more rugged and a little bit more [inaudible 00:24:33]. Like, if the GoPro fell out of the car, it’s still…it’s fine.
Bob: This goes back…
Chris: So you can see a scene? So the way I’m…like, you can see a scene and say, “This is GoPro scene,” like, “Let’s get it out.” And then back of a cab or Uber, it’s like, “I could pull the GoPro out, but this is not suitable or it’s not…”
Eva: Yeah, and the other thing is the audio on the GoPro isn’t fantastic, so the type of…if I’m interviewing someone in the cab and ask them questions, [00:25:00] it doesn’t capture sound even, like, in the way my iPhone would.
Bob: So tell me about the 6300 and the 6500. What are you getting actually? So how has that changed in terms of your…you said the process is better. Like, what does that really translate to terms of…because you’re waiting. You’re like at some point, it’s like, “I got the GoPro, and that it’s only good for certain shots.” I almost feel like the iPhone is not even worthy of [00:25:30] shooting, is that right?
Eva: That’s probably legitimate, yes.
Bob: You’re not saying it. That’s me saying it, but at the same time it’s like, yeah, it’s just [corny?] to see the vertical…” Like, “I’m not shooting with my iPhone.” You got all the memory for it but it’s not gonna capture well.
Chris: Yeah. So help me. Don’t use his words. I thought the iPhone has a good…it’s like slo-mo…it’s got all kinds of…isn’t it a good camera?
Eva: It’s…so I think in the [00:26:00] most clearest way to explain it. Now the new iPhones can sort of do it, but you know, when you have a shallow aperture, and you are able to focus on something and then it blurs out the background? That cannot be done on a GoPro or, let’s say, an iPhone. So it’s like that style of video is just not achievable with…
Bob: And that’s what you want?
Bob: And could you do that with the A2?
Eva: The A63…
Bob: No, no. The A2 that you had.
Eva: Yeah, yeah.
Bob: So you had that with the A2 and could you make sure that you did it with the [00:26:30] A6300 or the 6500 would do it too, right?
Eva: Yes, so how I verified or how I figured out the 6500 is I just asked one of the directors that I work with relatively after [inaudible 00:26:41], and I was like, “Hey, I’m thinking about a mirrorless. This is how much space, it’s not a lot, that I’m gonna travel with. What would you recommend? I’ve been looking at 6500 because it’s the new model coming out. What would you recommend as your one lens [00:27:00] and the minimal gear aperture [inaudible 00:27:03] to me?”
Chris: I’m sorry. I zoned out. Where were you when you were having this conversation? This is one of the people…
Eva: It was email. Yes, this is…
Bob: Is this before Colombia or after Colombia?
Eva: This is after Colombia.
Bob: It feels like there’s more and more urgency that was after Colombia?
Eva: Yeah, that’s probably an accurate statement.
Chris: Wait. Why? Do you have any ideas of like why it kinda built up?
Eva: I think it’s just because after coming back from… [00:27:30] Colombia, and Medellin in particular, I think just has a stronger stigma against it. I just found myself, I think, explaining a lot, just like retelling the same stories, and more or less trying to convince people that it’s not just “Narcos.” And so the idea was in my head to, like, shoot, you know, this kind of video before, but I think after having gone through or stayed in [00:28:00] Colombia, and coming back, and I’m like, “God, it really would have been great if I actually did this in Colombia instead of just retelling the same seven stories over and over.”
Bob: So is it more about telling…”I just don’t wanna tell the story over and over again,” or is it more than you wanted to tell a more compelling story or both?
Eva: It’s probably both but more so on the compelling side.
Bob: Okay, so it wasn’t like…because every time you see somebody say, “How was Colombia?” it’s like [00:28:30] you heard it now four times and it’s like, “All right, let me tell you the story again.” It wasn’t necessarily that, but it’s like you wanted to make sure that it was compelling enough.
Eva: Yeah, just so I think me retelling it doesn’t do it any justice.
Bob: Got it.
Ryan [Singer]: Can I ask a question real quick?
Bob: Oh, sure.
Ryan [Singer](Audience Member #1): Can you remember a time when you thought, “I wish I had done this in Colombia?” Like when did you actually think that?
Eva: So, on my…one of the first days in Jardin, I think it was the first day, I spent two hours, two and a half hours [00:29:00] talking to…she’s a 17-year-old, she was the niece of the Airbnb place that I was staying at. And we spent two and a half hours using just Google Translate because she spoke no English. And I wish I caught that stuff on video and I could translate it sort of after the fact. But yeah, we literally passed my phone back and forth for almost about two hours. And that was probably the point which I was like…I remember thinking, “It would be [00:29:30] pretty cool if I had bought a camera to…”
Bob: Why didn’t pull out the GoPro?
Ryan: When you were there, you thought of it?
Eva: When I…
Ryan When you were there?
Eva: When I was there, I thought it, yeah.
Ryan: When you were there and having this two-and-a-half-hour back and forth? That’s when you thought, “I wish I had the camera now?”
Bob: And why didn’t you pull the GoPro out?
Eva: Well, I mean from a logistics standpoint, we’re on the mountain, that’s where the house was, and then we were in the town when this two-hour…
Bob: So you didn’t have the GoPro with you?
Eva: I didn’t have it with me.
Bob: If you had with you, would you have pulled it out?
Eva: I don’t know. I don’t think I… [00:30:00]
Bob: It’s not the right shot?
Eva: It’s not the right shot.
Bob: That’s right.
Audience Member #2: Can I ask?
Audience Member #2: What is mirrorless? You keep mentioning you bought a mirrorless camera. Why does it matter?
Eva: Should I go ahead and answer it?
Eva: So basically, I’m not gonna go to…but there’s a section of a DSLR or a regular camera that has a mirror, so it deflects the image coming into the lens upwards into the viewfinder. So mirrorless basically means that part is removed, and it just goes straight into the sensor. So what you see in the [00:30:30] viewfinder is digitally rendered. Yeah, if that makes sense.
Audience Member #2: Why did you want a mirrorless camera in the first place versus a DSLR?
Eva: It’s mostly because of the form factor.
Bob: What does that mean form…I don’t know.
Eva: Because it’s much smaller. It’s lighter. It’s smaller. It almost looks like a point-and-shoot to that size. For me, the DSLRs were always…it’s great, but they’re like a pound, and I do not have the space in my backpack to put it.
Bob: Back to space. Back to space. And you don’t wanna [00:31:00] get into the rabbit hole of constantly…
Bob: …gear. Having too much gear. Okay. And at what point…so I need to move it ahead a little bit, which is…when did it come out, the 6500?
Eva: I think it was December 7th or some…
Bob: And did you try to buy it that day?
Eva: No, because I was coming back from Colombia and I didn’t buy it.
Bob: Oh. Did you know? Did you like, “It’s coming out that day. When I get home, I’m [00:31:30] gonna buy it.”
Bob: No, okay, so it wasn’t in your mind?
Eva: No. It was like I came back and then I’m like, “Oh, I think the camera is out.” And then, like, “Let me look around.”
Chris: Yeah. So this is like a probing…but when do you think you actually came to the conclusion that you were gonna…if it’s the 65 or 63, but like, “I’m plunking it down.” Is this landing telling the story? Is it back in Colombia, do you remember when you kinda had the…you turned the corner?
Bob: Yeah, at what point?
Eva: That I was gonna buy one? [00:32:00]
Eva: Like, I was 100%?
Eva: I was probably 100%…I don’t know. I mean 100% was probably after I landed because like when I sent Ben, the director, the email, I was 100%. It was like when I was asking him about it, “Hey, what would you recommended for the A20 gear?” I feel like I was more or less committing to buying something. So it was definitely…and that was after. That was after I landed, [00:32:30] for sure.
Bob: Was it after your sister or before your sister?
Eva: After my sister.
Bob: So you landed, went to your sister’s, and then said, “All right, I’m gonna do this.” Emailed the director and said, “All right, I’m thinking about this. Which one should I get? I don’t wanna go down the rabbit hole. What’s the right lens and body to get?” And did you ask him the difference 63 and 65?
Eva: No. No, I didn’t ask him. I decided the [00:33:00] 65 already. I asked him, “Hey, I’m thinking about the 6500. What do you think?”
Bob: He didn’t know or didn’t…
Eva: Oh, no, he did. He said, “Hey, let me look at the camera.” Because I know that he owned like, I think, the A2 that I was shooting with was his, so he owned the A2. So he actually was like, “Hey, let me take a look at it,” via email, “I’ll get back to you.” And he looked at it and said, “Okay, you know, it’s a pretty good camera.”
Chris: So tell me more about that [00:33:30] email. So you said something about you defined the space that you want this to fit into?
Bob: Yeah, I didn’t take a picture of it or anything. In my head, I was more or less mapping it out, but I did say, “I have a…” He has seen my backpack, but I’m like, “It’s gonna have to fit in like half of that backpack because the other half I probably need for laptops or whatnot.”
Chris: Okay, and that’s how you describe it in the email? Like, “You know my backpack? It’s half of that.” Like there’s no inches or…
Eva: No, there’s no inches. I was like, “It has to fit in half of my backpack.”
Bob: In Canada, it would be centimeters.
Chris: I said so. I’m [00:34:00] down with the metrics.
Eva: I didn’t mention the fact that, “Hey, you know my backpack?” I was like, “It has to fit in the half of my backpack.” I’m pretty sure it’s the words I used. The space of half of my backpack, yeah.
Bob: So then…
Chris: Wait. So who else did you…that’s an email to the director. So otherwise, you’re just searching online? Did you email anyone else or ask anyone else for advice? Or is he the one…
Eva: Did I ask anyone else? I don’t think I did. [00:34:30] I read reviews on the 6300 and what people were thinking about the 6500. That’s about it.
Chris: How long did he take to get back? So it sounds like he shot a message back quickly, like, “Hey, I’m gonna look into it.” How long did it take for the next email to come?
Eva: It was in the same day. Maybe a couple of hours.
Chris: Okay. Is there an urgency? Is that…like you hit and refreshing your email, like, “I wanna know what your opinion is?” Or is it just like, “Whenever it comes back, it comes back.”
Eva: No. It [00:35:00] was, “Whenever it comes back, it comes back.” I didn’t have like, “Oh, my goodness. I need the camera tomorrow.”
Bob: When is the next trip?
Eva: Hopefully, in February. I haven’t booked anything yet.
Bob: So you didn’t really need the camera and then the urgency [was before?]
Eva: In December. Yeah.
Bob: In December?
Eva: No. No, I didn’t need it. I recently…the video is actually probably done by now, but I shot…I flew a friend out to San Francisco as a surprise birthday present, so I was like…that was sort of in my head the [00:35:30] next…the thing that I was gonna be shooting first. That was January 12th.
Bob: Okay, so you had in your mind that, “I’m gonna get this because I wanna shoot this.”
Bob: “I wanna shoot this better.”
Bob: And, again, stills are part of this, but it’s really not stills?
Eva: It’s not stills.
Bob: This is video.
Chris: So what did you come back with? What did the email say when he replied?
Eva: So he replied saying that it’s a good camera, like he thinks it’ll be a good camera, or he thinks it is a good camera because it was already out, but he doesn’t have it himself, he just read [00:36:00] the specs. And then he gave me his six items, I think, of all the other things I should get. I know it sounds ridiculous. Six sounds like a lot, but it’s like a lens…
Bob: That’s the rabbit hole, isn’t it? Now you gotta get all this other stuff.
Eva: Yeah, well, yeah, but it was the bare minimum rabbit hole. So it was like a battery, a memory card.
Bob: An extra battery?
Eva: An extra battery, a memory card, a lens. He sent back a tripod. [00:36:30] and I never ended up getting the tripod yet. What else did he send? There was an adapter for the lens. So he recommended the adapter because Canon lenses have a much greater depth than Sony lenses, and Sony lenses are more expensive but for no apparent reason other than the fact they’re Sony. The glass isn’t necessarily better. So the adapter was extra to…
Bob: So you bought an adapter and you bought a…
Eva: One lens.
Bob: But you bought a Canon lens?
Eva: I bought… [00:37:00] yeah, it’s a Tamron lens with a Canon…
Bob: Yeah, yeah. I got it.
Eva: And a mic, that was the other thing, because I wanted good audio for the type of video.
Bob: Got it.
Chris: Well, you said bare minimum rabbit… Is it really a rabbit hole at that point or are you looking at this list like, “No, it’s the stuff I need.”
Eva: No. This is to prevent the rabbit hole. This is like, “I don’t wanna go into the rabbit hole. What is the minimum amount of gear that I need in order to shoot this type of video?”
Bob: But I heard a lens and a camera. Now, I’ve got a [00:37:30] lens, a camera, a battery, a card…
Eva: And a mic.
Bob: …an adapter, and a mic. That’s it. You’re done?
Eva: That’s it.
Bob: But I heard also a tripod, but I haven’t gotten it yet. I heard “yet.”
Eva: Well, I didn’t get the tripod, yeah.
Bob: Okay, how is the tripod gonna fit…well, you didn’t get it yet, but you said “yet.” Like it sound like, “I didn’t get it…yet.” Like it’s still possible.
Eva: Yeah, that’s still possible. It’s always…
Bob: Do you need a bigger backpack yet?
Eva: No, I don’t need a bigger backpack yet. The other way I did it was I scoped down stuff that I…like now that I have that.
Bob: What got out of the backpack?
Eva: The [00:38:00] GoPro. That’s not in the…
Bob: Okay, GoPro’s gone.
Eva: Well, it’s not gone. It’s no longer in the backpack.
Bob: Okay, but it doesn’t go on you with the trip because it’s…
Eva: No. Not to the trip.
Bob: How are you gonna take those wide angle shots?
Eva: I don’t know. I don’t know.
Chris: So email comes, you go online, buy it right then? Give me the rest of it. What happened after you get the email back?
Eva: Email comes, I open up every link in a bunch of tabs.
Chris: He’s given you links?
Eva: He’s given me links. [00:38:30]
Chris: So every product has like a…
Eva: Every product has a link to B&H Photo I believe is the website, bnhphoto.com. So, yeah, I open up every single link. And I start, yeah, I kinda start looking into it. But the first thing…
Bob: Wait. When is this? What date?
Eva: Oh, man. I don’t know the date.
Eva: It’s before Christmas. It’s like either a week and a bit maybe before Christmas. It’s not the week of Christmas, for sure. I think it’s the week [00:39:00] before. So the first thing though, so I open up all the links, and then the first thing I do, like, go to try to buy the camera. That’s the starting point before the rest of this.
Chris: On B&H?
Eva: Not on B&H. Where did I… Because Ben didn’t link to the actual camera because I had suggested the camera initially. I think I just Googled like, you know, and [00:39:30] Best Buy came up first, but it was sold out.
Bob: Because it’s all sold out.
Eva: So the camera is sold out. So I was like, oh, okay, they’re all sold out.
Chris: Just at Best Buy?
Eva: Just at Best Buy. And then I proceeded to go like back and look at other links, but it didn’t have it…so that goes all in back order, so that’s where…
Bob: But did you wanna go to Best Buy and get it, or were you thinking of just ordering it online at Best Buy?
Eva: I was gonna do [00:40:00] either or. Like my initial thing was to just do it online because I don’t like going to malls, I was like, but they didn’t have it.
Bob: Either way. Either way.
Eva: Either way.
Bob: Got it. Okay,
Chris: Why don’t you like to go into malls?
Eva: I don’t know. Time.
Chris: Just park and getting out to go and buy.
Eva: Yeah, yeah. It’s just not…
Bob: It’s a big buy. Are you sure you don’t wanna go to the mall and see it and physically…you didn’t…
Eva: The return policy is great, so I think…yeah.
Bob: Okay. Got it. Got it.
Chris: So Best Buy is sold out. Did you [00:40:30] find it in stock? I’m sorry.
Eva: No, I…so basically, that day it was like, oh, “Well, the camera’s not available.” So I was starting to look at some of the stuff that he had sent over, but I didn’t buy any of it. So I was like, “Okay, I should probably buy the camera first before getting the rest of this.” The week after, this is the week of Christmas.
So I had a dinner, I had a friend come over, he’s a photographer, and he had recently just got a Fuji, mirrorless. He’s transitioned from the DSLR. And he’s doing mostly photography. [00:41:00] and I was telling him about…I’m like, “Oh, yeah, I tried to buy the A6500, but it’s sold out.” And he said, “Oh, you should…” He’s like, “You should check,” he’s like, “I was refreshing constantly for the Fuji on Amazon.” There’s two that was available, and he had jumped on it right away. And I’m like, “I’m not sitting on Amazon, refreshing until the A6500, you know, comes in stock.
Bob: Oh my gosh.
Eva: And so after the dinner, I checked…after our conversation, it’s maybe like the day after that I checked at [00:41:30] Best Buy, and they had four cameras in stock. I’m like, “Awesome, four…” So I tried to buy one and thinking that…and it went through, and Best Buy sends this email saying like, “Oh, it’s processing, but we’ll give you a confirmation email, you know, once…” and I’m assuming everything is gonna go fine because there’s four cameras. So I proceeded to get the rest of it, right? So I’m like, great, my Tamron lens, you know, I started ordering the stuff on Amazon.
Chris: But now we’re on Amazon?
Eva: Yes, now we’re on Amazon.
Bob: So, you only bought [00:42:00] the body at…
Eva: Best Buy.
Bob: …Best Buy, and everything else you bought on Amazon?
Bob: Got it.
Eva: So Ben gave me the links to BNH, but they’re all in American prices. So I was like, okay, let me just quickly Google to see if there is like a cheaper Canadian version, and almost all of it came up just on Amazon. That’s…
Chris: But will B&H ship to you? Is it just they can…like the…
Eva: B&H will ship to Canada. It says…there’s a banner that says, “We do international shipping to…” [00:42:30] Or something about Canadian…the cookie [inaudible 00:42:32], probably, yeah.
Chris: So it didn’t sound like that was a good…
Eva: I wanted to double-check the price to see if there was a Canadian…instead of eating the currency exchange. So Amazon came up. Anyways, so I got all of the Amazon stuff, or I ordered all the Amazon stuff, and then Best Buy emails me, I think later that day.
Bob: Oh, shit.
Eva: And goes…something about the order, “Your credit card didn’t work.” And I’m like, “What do you mean my credit card didn’t work?” So then I tried to order it again, [00:43:00] and then a couple of hours later, they sent me the same email. And then now my credit card company…because they’d basically go…
Bob: That you ordered twice.
Eva: “…Oh, you’ve never ordered a camera or something, so this possibly is fraud,” so they blocked the order. And then I was actually at a product meeting when this happened. And then I called the credit card company saying, “Hey, it’s fine.” But there’s a third order I think between me calling the credit card [00:43:30] company to say it’s fine, and trying Best Buy again. And then I think it’s because I called Best Buy to say, “Hey, it’s not fraud, etc., etc.” And they’re like, “Well, I can try to put the order through the phone, but it’s gonna be more or less the same.” So third order doesn’t work. Called the credit company to say it’s fine. I place a fourth order or try to and it’s sold out.
Bob: It’s sold out.
Eva: I’m like, “I’m over it, Best Buy.”
Bob: By the way, you’ve got the lens coming, you’ve got everything else [00:44:00] coming, and it’s like, “But I have no body.”
Eva: And then that’s when I placed the order with Canada Cameras.
Chris: How did you find…
Bob: How much more did you have to pay?
Eva: No, the same price.
Bob: Same price, okay.
Chris: How did you find…did you about Canada…
Chris: I haven’t heard that until…
Eva: I did not know about it.
Chris: So how did you make your way from Best Buy to…now you’re in a meeting. You’re in a meeting at work you said?
Eva: Yeah, it was in a call, but I ignored the…I didn’t do it right away. This was [inaudible 00:44:21] meeting. So it’s like at the end of the day, I went back and I was like, “Okay.” I just put in “Sony A6500 Canada,” [00:44:30] and it was like Best Buy, and then I think Canada Camera was maybe like the third link.
Bob: And the Amazon didn’t have it?
Eva: Amazon was also sold out. Yeah.
Chris: I’m pretty good. So the last thing I have. Your friend with the…he’s a photographer. It doesn’t sound like you asked him a whole lot. This is Ben?
Eva: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Chris: Like there’s no, “Hey, how’s that Fuji? Is it like…”
Bob: Didn’t Ben try to convince to buy a Fuji? He just bought a Fuji.
Eva: No, Matt convinced me. Yeah.
Bob: Oh, Matt.
Eva: No, he didn’t try to convince me to buy a Fuji.
Eva: [00:45:00] I don’t know. I don’t know why he didn’t try to convince me to buy a Fuji. I think…I mean Fuji is known for photography, less so for video.
Chris: Is Sony known for video?
Eva: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Chris: Okay, got it.
Bob: I’m good.
Ryan [Singer]: I got a question. Before the Colombia trip, did you already have the idea that mirrorless was the way to go if you were to get a camera?
Eva: Yeah. Yeah, I did.
Ryan: Okay. And that [00:45:30] was you had a conversation with your photographer staff like after the day when you tried it? When did you figure out that mirrorless was the thing you wanted?
Eva: At the end of the first day of shooting.
Ryan: At the end of the first day of shooting?
Ryan: And then when did you see your sister after the Colombia trip?
Eva: The weekend of. So I landed on the 6th, and whatever that…which is somewhere in the middle of the week, I think it was a Wednesday, and then the Saturday is when I saw her.
Ryan: And you said that you [00:46:00] emailed Ben about which lens to get. Is that like the day after you see your sister? Is that like a week later?
Eva: No, that’s the week before the week of Christmas.
Ryan: So what happened between seeing your sister and emailing Ben? Like why did you email Ben a week later?
Eva: Right away? Why didn’t I…? I don’t know. I don’t know why I waited those couple of days. I don’t know if seeing my sister was necessarily a trigger to be as probably…
Audience Member #3: When did you find about the trip to [00:46:30] San Francisco? When did get to find out?
Eva: I planned that early December. So I was still in Colombia when I was trying to get her boyfriend to trick her into taking the days off. So somewhere in the first week of December.
Ryan: Do you remember where you were when you emailed Ben about the lens? Were you at home or…
Eva: I was at home. I was at home in my room. That’s all I remember, at my desk.
Ryan: Do you remember, like, was that at night, was it in the morning?
Eva: [00:47:00] No, I don’t remember. I could check. I have the email but…
Ryan: That’s all right.
Chris: The one thing I wanna ask, you said like your arms were tired after the day of A…so how did you reconcile the weight? Like, if I’m making this up, that’s a mirrorless. Now you’re buying a mirrorless to like travel with and you’re saying it’s small and light and that sort of thing. Is that a contradictory…
Eva: Well, no, because most of it, the weight was the three-pound lens.
Chris: So you dropped that off, and the rest of it is…
Chris: Got it. Cool.
Bob: Got it. Okay, we’re done. We got it.
Eva: Cool. [00:47:30]
Bob: Thank you so much.
Eva: No, that was great.