Forces Friday: Habit of the Present

The Forces Friday series wraps up with the most overlooked of the Four Forces of Progress: the Habit of the Present. In this episode of Jobs-to-be-Done Radio, Chris Spiek, Bob Moesta, and Ervin Fowlkes break down why an existing routine quietly anchors customers to the way they already do things, and why a new product can lose even when push and pull are strong.

Using a smoker trying to quit, a Roomba sitting next to a beloved Dyson, and the long migration from iTunes to Pandora, the team shows how the habit of the present holds people back from switching. Use the player above, then read on for the key takeaways and the complete transcript, organized by topic with short explainers of the core concepts.

Forces Friday wrap-up and what is coming next

Announcer: Welcome to the latest edition of Jobs To Be Done Radio. Where we discuss how to apply the Jobs To Be Done framework, to understand why consumers switch from one product to another, and ultimately how to get more customers to switch to your product. And here are your hosts.

Chris: All right. Welcome to the latest edition of “Jobs-To-Be-Done” Radio, I’m Chris Spiek. As always, I am here with Bob Moesta and Ervin Folkes. Hey guys.

Bob: Hey, Chris, how are you?

Ervin: Hey, Chris.

Chris: So, we’re back to wrap up our “Forces Friday” series, which has taken us a little bit longer than we expected. But we’re going to dive into, the force that we have to discuss is the habit of the present. So, we’ll have rounded up this entire thing and hopefully delivered you some good content that you can go back and review as you’re going through your forces diagram. So, Ervin, you’re going to dive into that for us in a minute. We have a couple of other really cool administrative items we want to get through here. So, first of all, Bob, you and I are headed off to Cambridge?

Bob: Yeah.

Chris: A couple days in London doing some interviews for a client. Got the switch workshop in Cambridge on Thursday.

Bob: And Redgate, right?

Chris: Yeah. Redgate Software. Thanks to Simon for coordinating and hosting and marketing and pretty much doing everything. So, I met Simon in Chicago a couple of months ago. He came over to the workshop at 37signals and was nice enough to invite us over to Europe. So, that will be a fun trip. It will be a “Jobs-to-be-done-filled” field trip.

Bob: Just to be clear. That ambulance was in Detroit. That’s not us. We’re all safe here.

Chris: Absolutely. We’re good. So, yeah. That will be cool. We’ve also got the advanced, we’ve got a Switch workshop coming up in Toronto.

Bob: Yes, we haven’t really announced it, have we?

Chris: This is it. So, this is August 7th, we have the Switch workshop. And then, August 8th is the advanced.

Bob: Yeah, the advanced.

A new advanced course on analyzing interviews

Chris: The advanced course. So, I’d say this is by popular demand. So, every time we do a Switch workshop, there’s a handful of people saying “Look, we’ve done interviews” or “We’re going to do interviews. How do we analyze/compare/unpack stories? How do we kind of dive in and make sure that we’re taking the interview content and making it actionable for marketing for product development for everybody else”? So, that’s going to be kind of the deep dive. So, we have it structured the way now, where I think there will be a bit of practice going in. So, we’re going to have you listen some to interviews around different topics that we’ve done that we can share, maybe three per topic. And then, we’re going to do our analysis process, kind of, in the class, within everyone participating and actually doing the analysis in real time and what we call “mapping the jobs” and identifying job dimensions and that sort of thing.

Ervin: So, this is kind of cool. Because this is the first time we’re actually doing it outside of client work and outside of internal workshops we’ve done. This is the first time we’re giving it to the public. So, if you’ve been to a Switch workshop.

Bob: Yeah. The thing is, I think it’s a big challenge. Because, typically, to do the analysis, you have to be kind of into those interviews. And so, the hard thing is is that, this is more of a generalized topic like wines. I don’t know which topic we picked.

Ervin: So, right now, it’s going to be laptop bags for women and wine.

Bob: And so, it’s topics that we kind of know about. But from a business perspective, you don’t know all the ins and outs of what kind of business lens you’re putting out. Am I retailer, am I a grower? Am I a maker of the bag?

Chris: Part of it, I think, will be actually setting it up in a way where we’re going to set the scene. So, we have the marketing team. We have the product development team. We have this sort of business.

Bob: The role, right.

Chris: And then we’ll have roles. So, it’s important to point out, Bob. What you said into the interview. So, typically when we do this analysis and people listening will find this important. We tend to do a handful of interviews, 5-10 interviews. And then, the next day, we’re going into analysis. So, the stories are fresh in our minds. Around the table, we’ve got two, three, sometimes five or six people who have witnessed the interviews. And we can all say “Okay, let’s talk about Jenny. Let’s talk about her story. What’s unique about it”? And we have different methods that we’re going to use to analyze the data, but it pours out of everyone real quickly. And we’ve got recordings and everything if we need to go back and listen. So, it’s like you’re immersed, right?

Bob: Right. And it’s much faster. So, the thing is we’re going to try to teach. We’re probably going to have people do it and then, try to teach them the process for doing it.

Chris: Exactly.

Bob: And so, the hard part is that, I’ll say, there’s a generalized version of the process. But there are given situations where you’re going to change it and modify it. So, we’re going to give, I’ll say, the framework of how to analyze. And then, we’re going to talk about two specific kinds of situations. But the reality of it is that it’s like, okay. We haven’t really analyzed the same thing, ever. And the whole thing is it’s getting back into how’s your judgment play in these things? So, as I always say, it’s about, you know. It’s half art, half science.

Chris: Yeah. And the good thing is, I think the audience for this is good at that. So, it’s like the interview technique. We can’t give you the script and say “Go after these questions and you’ll get the outcome.” So, I think if you’ve been through the Switch workshop, you’re used to it and you’re probably good at it. You’re dynamic and you’re able to adapt to the topic.

Bob: That’s right. And the notion is is that it’s better than what you were doing before. And so the notion is we’re not trying to design some ideal process of “Okay, what’s the best way to analyze these interviews”? It’s like, at some point, it’s the continuous improvement approach, it’s progress. So, I’m excited to see, you know, it’s kind of like when we went to the University of Illinois. We tried to teach students who have no real experience in the business world. We weren’t sure how that was going to turn out. It turned out awesome. I think this is going to be the same kind of thing. I think I have some apprehensions because I think it’s going to be more challenging. But it might turn out to be not. It might be easier.

Chris: So, only time will tell. But, the good thing is is that, everyone that we’ve heard from that has requested this is like, “Look. I’m sitting on a pile of interviews.” So, I think the good thing is, it’s like the Switch workshop. People are going to be open about “Hey you’re doing this, but I’m in this industry. And I heard this. How would you analyze this case?” So, honestly, I think it’s going to be a ton of fun. I think being there is going to be super valuable for everyone. Because they’re going to hear other attendees talk about B to B, B to C, it’s like you’re going to get a whole ton of experience from being there.

There is a catalog of actual interviews along with analysis available here.

Bob: The people who will be there will all be pulled into interviews. It will be talking about what progress looks like and what did I do before or how different it is or whatever. So, it will be fun.

Chris: So, we should point that out to you. So, the prerequisite to the advanced course is that you’ve attended the Switch workshop, you’ve done interviews. Or that there are people out there who know how to interview that haven’t been to the Switch. So, if you can demonstrate “Look, I understand the intro, the technique, the timing. I get the tools and I know how to interview. Let’s talk and you can get admittance into this advanced class.” But I think that’s important is that there’s a baseline of understanding of the interview technique and how to get to the jobs.

Bob: That second day. So, you can go to the first day or second day and make it. But the thing is, it’s kind of like when people go get their MBA’s. It’s always better to go get a couple years of experience and go right out of school. So, I think it’s the same kind of notion.

Chris: Yeah. So, if you’re at that point where you’ve done a bunch of interviews. I think most people are at the point where they’ve done a lot of interviews and they’ve acted on them. The people that we’ve talked to are like, we don’t have a formalized analysis process, but we’ve taken the stories from the interviews. We’ve made product changes, we’ve made advertising changes, we’re acting on them. I think this is the next step of kind of formalizing the after-interview process. So, look for that announcement on jobstobedone.org.

Bob: And what’s interesting to me, again, we’ve taken the completely opposite direction of where I say I think I went early on in this whole thing. I went deeper and deeper into how to analyze and the math. And this is again, trying to take, how do we simply the interview process? How do we simplify the analysis process? So, the whole purpose here is just to do some basic analysis to these interviews that have, again, very large impacts. So, this is isn’t about math and the [quant] studies. There’s all that stuff still to come, if you will. But this is around, it’s Analysis 101. It’s not Analysis 400.

Chris: It’s not stats and all that.

Bob: Not yet. I hope to get there someday.

Chris: Yeah. I don’t think it’s far off, but you’re right. I think this is talking about the stories and talking about analyzing and use the stories in different functions.

Bob: Well, to be honest, it’s how to analyze qualitative data. It’s the quantitative/qualitative that we talk about. So, that’d be very cool.

Qualifying buyers for the online JTBD course

Chris: So, the other thing we want to touch on is the online version of the “Jobs-To-Be-Done” course. We’re getting very close to launching that. I’d say we did a private launch over the last couple of days. So, we have people that are close to the jobstobedone.org site. Getting into it and starting to use it. Bob, you brought up an interesting point. So, as much it’s online and it’s going to be a couple of hundred bucks to take. It’ll be, I’d say, similar to the Switch workshop? You don’t have that in-person experience, which I think is really valuable. But our intention for this is really, obviously, we’re trying to spread the word of Jobs-to-Be-Done and get the framework into people’s hands that can really use it. So, we know there are people that can’t hit the dates when we’re having the Switch workshop. They can’t, maybe, travel from countries to get to where we’re at. So, this is really our effort to say “Learn the interview technique. Do it at your own pace. Do it online and get up to speed.” I guess the caveat, which we were talking about before we started the show, it’s like not everyone’s going to get in. And we want to talk about kind of how we’re going to structure that.

Bob: I think the notion is is that, we did some Beta, right? We had some different people take it. And what was very interesting is, the people who valued it the most, were the people who basically said “I have a project, I just did some interviews. I need to do more interviews next week.” They’re in. And they’re in a project and they need it. And those are the people who signed up and they went through it in like a day to two days. And they’re like “Oh, my God. This was awesome.” And they talk about how they applied it. Versus the people who were like “Yeah, I’ve heard about this stuff. I’m not too sure what it is.”

Chris: “We’ve got some extra budget.”

Bob: “Got some extra budget,” or they wanted to. And they’re like “Oh, I’ll take some time to do this.” And we’d do students. They’d be like “Oh, this is boring.” The whole thing is that we’re use the “It is possible” notion here of just basically saying, asking you some questions about what’s your intent? What are you trying to accomplish by taking this course? And then based on that, we’re basically going to say “You know what? This course is not for you.” Or “You know what? You’re ready to take this course.” Because value is based on your context, not on ours. And so, the thing is I’d much rather have fewer people who take it and love it, than more people who take it and don’t love it.

Chris: Yeah. People who take it and actually use it…

Bob: Will refer it. And so, the notion is to actually use the job’s framework to say “You’ve got to have a job to take the course.” Because if you don’t have a job, to be done, it’s kind of like “I just want to know about it…”

Chris: You’ll be extremely underwhelmed.

Bob: You’ll be underwhelmed. But it’s really about the tactics and the details of doing this stuff. As opposed to a lot of that theory behind it.

Chris: The other thing is, if you don’t have a topic to interview on or if you don’t have a project that you are incredibly curious about, like you want to find the answers to. You need to find the answers to. Doing this stuff is a lot of hard work. I’ve got to find people to interview. If this is just a hobby, it’s going to be hard.

Ervin: I have to tell you, for those of you listening, this was not my favorite thing to hear. Because, we spent so much time pointing to this course. And then, Chris and Bob come to me and say “You know, Ervin, listen. We really want to make sure we qualify people hard to make sure that this course is going to be of the most value to them.” And I’m like, my head’s exploding, I’m like “What do you mean? I want to teach everybody. I want everybody to have it. We should sing it from the rooftops.” But after a while, I kind of get the spirit of it. I’d rather you be ecstatic using someone else’s product than miserable using mine. So, if this is what it takes for us to get there, it’s one extra hurdle. But I believe that people who go through the process of making sure this course is for them, will reap the most benefit from it.

Bob: And to be honest, again, value isn’t in the moment. And if they’re not ready, they’re not ready. And so the thing is, if they actually try to take the course when they’re not ready for it, they’re going to be underwhelmed by it and never think of it as a solution. So, it’s kind of like the housing business. When we did houses in the “It is Possible” thing, it was “Are you ready to move”? We had that whole question we were doing. Why do you need to move? Why can’t you move? What’s your life going to be like when you’re in this new house? And what you found is that if people couldn’t answer those questions, they weren’t ready to talk to us. If they had those questions down, I could close. They were ready. But if not, it was like they would waste my time. So, the thing is, it’s more about I don’t want to waste their time. And so, this is really about trying to create value for them. This isn’t about the sale. This is about consumption. How do we make sure people actually consume what we have out there? So, we might be able to sell a thousand of these. But if I only get 20 percent to consume, that’s horrible value.

Chris: Yeah, so I think you said it the best. So, I do want to append what I said earlier. It’s not about keeping people out. It’s about making sure that we let the people in that are going to make very good use of their own time. And that we’re not selling this to a bunch of people who are going to waste. What are we up to, nine hours? Nine hours of probably content, and then you’ve got to do some interviews to practice and keep up with the course. It’s not grueling, it’s not a college course. But you’re going to dedicate time after work, time during work. There’s going to be a time commitment here. And if we haven’t set the expectation correctly and made sure that you have something in your life that you can use this on, you’re going to hate us at the end for spending the money and you’re going to hate yourself for wasting your time. So, I think this is the spirit of Jobs-to-Be-Done, I’ll say, is making sure that the value matches the situation. That’s really what we’re out to do.

Bob: That’s right. And again, “No” doesn’t mean no forever. “No” means “No for now.” And it’s like, you’re just not ready.

Chris: “No” means that you need to shape the job up.

Bob: You shape the job up of what you want to accomplish. So, exactly right. We’re just drinking our own Kool Aid on that one. My thing is, you guys did kind of the bulk of the lifting on the course. Tell me about the process. Was it fun? Was it hard? Ervin’s got the big grin on his face, like “Oh, my God.”

Building something new is hard

Ervin: Hold out your hand because I’m about to drop a name. Ryan Singer, when Chris had a discussion about it. He said when you’re creating something new, there’s this preconceived idea that’s everybody’s just like “Oh, we’re coming out with the new greatest thing. We’re kind of floating through the halls. Oh, look it’s so beautiful” and everybody loves it and everybody’s having a great time the whole time. But we kind of realize is that when you’re creating something new, it’s hard.

Bob: You don’t know what you’re doing.

Ervin: You don’t know what you’re doing. Like we talk about all the time. We’re making some of the most important decisions, we have the least amount of information. And so, you’re going there. There’s no one to test it against. So, every day, you’re going in and working on faith. Like, okay, I think I’m doing the best thing possible. Then you go back and redo it and re-fight it and re-tweak it and go back again. So, it was a lot of fun. But so much of your heart goes into it. The entire time, like I hope this is the greatest thing that’s ever been here before.

Chris: Ryan always tells the story of like, I get the feeling that people come up to him and say, like “What was it like when you were launching base camp”? Like it must have been popping champagne and strippers and so much fun. And it’s like, no. Every night, my stomach is in knots. I wake up thinking that these decisions are so critical. Because they are, you’re making product decisions. And it’s like, I haven’t slept for weeks. I don’t know if we’re not going down the completely wrong path. Is anybody even going to buy this? But the glory that comes afterward, everyone associates to the process. Like you guys must have been having a blast with this. Ervin and I are sitting here every day. We’re like “Are we teaching the right thing? Are they going to learn it? Are they going to be able to apply it”? It’s just when you ask how it was, it’s fun. Like, creating something new is fun. It’s also very difficult making trade-offs and making decisions.

Bob: Well, and it gets back to Jason [inaudible 17:26] book. There are no oversight successes. The thing is, you built a prototype. You did a round of testing. You basically did some more feedback on it. You now have another round of testing. You’ve got good signals. But the thing is, it’s rounds of prototyping. It’s all about prototyping, right? And so the thing is, at some point, again, it’s listening to the customer, listening to the context. When is it adding value, when is it not adding value? What do we need to add? When don’t we need to add? Again, as soon as we do this, they’re going to say “Oh, you need to add this and this.” But the reality is that they’re only asking for that because they went through it. It’s not the people who aren’t going through it who want that. So, you have to realize what’s the right combination of things to add? So, it’s the fun part of product development. That’s why I love it. It’s very cool. I remember coming in this morning, you guys said “Did you see the website. We sent the letter out. Did you see everybody check that”? There’s all that buzz, right, but, you know, it’s one of those things where it’s like, it’s still going to fit into people’s lives. It’s the middle of summer. You just offer them something that’s really kind of cool, but it’s nine hours. It’s like “Okay, I’ve got vacation coming up.” One is to say, there must be some kind of interest because everybody did something with that e-mail or a high percentage of people had interest with it. But the notion is, it might not be the right time. They might be able to do it until August or later. So, don’t, that’s the nots. “Why aren’t they buying it? Why aren’t they doing it”? It’s very interesting.

Chris: Yeah. I don’t think so, at least for me personally just to reflect on product development. I don’t think the nots are nearly as much around people buying or not buying. It’s leading up, it’s making the decision. So, it’s making harder decisions. “When do I stop? When is it good enough? When do I keep refining, adding more, taking stuff”? Those product level decisions, I think, it’s the difficult part. And I think it’s what every manager, every product developer. Everyone kind of faces it. It’s like “When are you done? When are you happy with it”? That’s the difficult aspect of it.

Bob: Early and often, that all I’d say. It’s never good enough, so you just put it out there. Everything’s a draft and it’s like “How do I just get the feedback and know when it’s there”? The question gets back to the investment, right? It’s really about how many dollars, how much time. A tweak here or a tweak there is a big investment. It’s like “When do I have to revamp the whole thing” or “When do I have to add a whole new section” or whatever.

Chris: So, what you’re going to see, we’re doing our rounds of testing. We did our initial beta. We’re doing a small, internal round, here. And then, you’ll see a launch within the next couple of weeks. So, we’re excited about that. What you will see on the website over the next few days is a signup page. So, if you want to get notified when the course is available to the public, it’s going to be quick. Put your e-mail there, let us know that you’re interested, we’ll get you on the list. We’ll notify you when it’s ready and you can go sign up there. So, that’ll be up soon. So, next, let’s talk about the habit of the present. So, we’re at the bottom-left quadrant of the forces here. I guess I’ll recap. If you’re listening to this and you haven’t listened to the previous ones, we have one episode where we fully explain the forces diagram. And then, we’ve done previous episodes on push/pull on anxiety. And now, we’re doing the habit of the present. So, if you need to stop this and go back and listen to those other ones, get yourself up to speed. We’ll link the forces diagram so you can see it, as well. But Ervin is going to talk about this last, sometimes elusive progress-making.

What is the habit of the present?

Bob: What has happened to the present? What does that mean?

Ervin: All right, so what happened to the present. And I’m glad I’m speaking on this one, because it’s my favorite one. Like, I know you guys love the anxiety because if you can nail anxiety and lower anxiety in the buying process, then you can expect explosive growth. But I like what happened to the present because number one, it’s what everybody kind of overlooks. Now, if you want to talk about strict definition of what happened to the present, it’s basically, it’s the way I’ve always done things. So, a new opportunity to do something different shows up. But when it shows up, I still have a way of everything I’ve always done. I’ve always used Tide. I’ve always used my certain type of blender. I’ve always bought the same type of wine. You only do something different. But if you don’t speak to my habit, if you don’t speak to what I’m already doing, you’re going to lose. Because the forces aren’t going to line up for you. Because, let’s take a smoker. If you’re a smoker and you wake up one day and say “Okay, I’m going to stop smoking,” what you have to realize is your entire environment is committed to you being a smoker.

Bob: What do you mean? I don’t understand.

Ervin: You have smoker stuff. You have ashtrays, you have moments in your life that you smoke. You have friends that smoke with you. No one else got the memo.

Bob: Nobody else got the memo that you’re quitting. So, when you say I got to quit smoking, I’ve gotta quit my friends. I’ve gotta quit my car because it smells like smoke. I’ve got all these other things that remind me. And so, the habit of the present is really that notion of every time I smell smoke, that’s pushing me back. I’ve gotta go smoke.

Ervin: Exactly.

Bob: So, it’s that force that’s pulling you back to what you used to do.

“You have smoker stuff. You have ashtrays, you have moments in your life that you smoke. You have friends that smoke with you. No one else got the memo.”Ervin Fowlkes

Ervin: Exactly. And so, if the product doesn’t speak to that and doesn’t offer some other solution, what are you going to do? Like, if you’re talking about switching insurance salesmen. Like, you’ve been with your insurance guy, he’s your uncle. And I’m trying to sell you my insurance plan. If I don’t walk you through the process, though, what it’s going to be like to sit down with your Uncle Tom and tell him that he’s no longer your insurance guy. Are you ready for that conversation? If you’re not speaking to those things, then you’re just leaving this person out there, hoping that they can work it out.

Bob: And it’s related to anxiety because, again, it’s underneath the surface of things. But it’s those things that you need to be able to call out. Because if you don’t call them out, they come out anyways. They’re there. They’re not there externally, but they’re internally, the friction that’s holding people back.

The Roomba versus the Dyson: habit in a real interview

Chris: So, we had a great story or interview from the last Switch workshop in Chicago that I think we should talk through. Because this is one of the best examples habit of the present. And this was one of those cool, I always talk about it 45 minutes in. Like, you have the conversation and it’s like, I kind of get the story. And in the 45-minute mark, it just blows wide open. So, the gentleman had bought the Roomba electric vacuum cleaner.

Bob: He had a lot of anxiety about buying that Roomba.

Chris: He did. So, just to give the kind of forces over to you, there’s push around this. His wife doesn’t like doing the vacuuming, he does the vacuuming. They have their chores divvied up. Very amicable sort of thing. You can feel like everything’s great there. They go to Japan, they visit friends. The wife is super hot on the Roomba and he’s the gadget guy. So, it’s like “Okay, I can see spending some money on this. The thing’s driving around it. The kids love it.” All that sort of thing. He’s got anxiety about whether it’s going to clean or not. And he actually talks about, like, “I’m up. The kids go to bed. It’s midnight. I’m on my laptop, my wife’s on my laptop, I do the research.” So, he goes about 12 months without buying it. What we eventually uncover is the love for the Dyson. That, he’s like the closet Dyson lover. He talks about, like, “I got the Roomba. I’ve had the Roomba for six months. But a week ago, my wife left town. And you know what? Saturday morning, I actually pulled the Dyson out.” It’s like, where did that come from? You have it automatically. Why would you pull it out of the closet and use the Dyson? So, I think it speaks to Ervin’s point perfectly. He uses it. He likes to do it. He’s not going to verbalize to his wife like “Hey, I like the idea of the Roomba. But I actually like vacuuming.” Because it sounds so ridiculous. But in reality, it kept him from 12 months. It’s like “I’m not going to be able to do this anymore.”

Bob: And the real reason the wife wanted the Roomba was it forced the kids, because the kids liked it so much, to pick up the whole room. So, it’s not that the Roomba did a great job vacuuming. It forced to kids to clean up. And so, the whole thing is that the Roomba did something completely different. He’s picking out like “Well, it doesn’t get into the corners.” He’s just trying to pick out all these things. “It doesn’t have the same suction power as the Dyson.” And it was just these whole things and it was like they were two completely different jobs. So, you realize, at the end of the day, the best was when he realized. He goes “Guess what? I don’t think I bought the Roomba. I just wore out on the energy for my wife to basically….”

Chris: The greatest part, it was one good instance of a story where I could see the other three forces really coalesce. I could feel push, I could feel pull. I could feel him deal with the anxiety. Like, I’m researching. It looks like it does a decent job cleaning. I’m not that worried about the cleaning. Why didn’t you buy? And this is that cigarette smoker, vacuum cleaner habit of the present. Until he kind of reconciled, maybe I could pull it out. And he wasn’t hiding it from her. But it’s like “When she’s not home, I’ll pull it out.”

Bob: I think the question we asked was “So, when’s the last time you pulled out the Dyson”? “It was Saturday.” “Was your wife around”? “No, my wife wasn’t around.” I’m like, “What’s up with that.” The best was his declaration. “Okay, I love my Dyson.” And it was like the whole room roared. Cause it’s like “You’re in love with your Dyson”? He goes “The Roomba’s okay, but it just doesn’t do everything my Dyson does.”

Chris: So, my thing is, they design those Dysons. It’s the sound. It’s seeing the dirt that’s sucked up.

Bob: It’s emptying, it’s a wonderful device.

Chris: He’s got the experience that that habit, he can’t fulfill anymore because the Roomba’s doing it automatically for him. So, I felt like that was a great example.

The dark side of habit: incumbents and lock-in

Ervin: So, let’s talk about the dark side of the habit, though. Let’s say you’re the incumbent. Everybody wants to be the disrupter. But if you’re the incumbent now, like I already have the client base. Then for you, understanding the habit is important as well. Because you need to amp it up. Apple, all my songs are in iTunes.

Bob: The switch is so big.

Ervin: The switch to something else is so big. Like, are you kidding? I’m not going to have iTunes anymore? That’s crazy?

Chris: How do you anchor people?

Ervin: Exactly. So, how do you anchor people, how do you build up? And true enough, certain companies out stand up and say “Listen, if you want to use someone else’s product, take all your stuff and go.” That’s very honorable. But if you’re the incumbent and you’re not to that level of progression and you’re thinking of how can I trap people into my product? Then you need to understand the habit. What are they trying to do to stay in their habit? And to help them not switch.

Bob: There’s a delicate line that you’re going to walk. As many as Apple is the closed system and this gets back to his conversations between Jobs and Christensen and everything. But Apple is the closed system. But they made it closed and then they were able to add value year over year. So, as iTunes is the hub of the spoke, you’re okay with me keeping your music prisoner because I’m providing you with all these new, nifty devices. But, if you’re literally just going to close the gates and say “I have your data and you can’t leave,” then it gets back to Bob’s consumption thing. You’ll get a revolt. People will just come out and say…so you can rely on habit if you’re doing everything else right. I can build habit but I can’t use it as a stick.

“I can build habit but I can’t use it as a stick.”Bob Moesta

One moment unhooks a habit: from Windows 7 to Mac

Ervin: You’re exactly right, but let’s talk about the contrast to that. When I was with my switch from Windows to Mac, I loved Windows 7. I was a huge Windows 7 fanatic.

Bob: Yes, you were.

Ervin: But when Windows 8 came out and everybody started migrating over, I’m like “All right. I know how Microsoft does. Sooner or later, they’re not going to support Windows 7. All the new software is going to be about Windows 8.” So, I went out and bought a Windows 8 laptop. Touchscreen, it was silver, it was beautiful.

Bob: It was gorgeous.

Ervin: It was gorgeous, but it was so hard to use. So, I was like “Shoot. I have nothing left, now. I’m a man without a country. I can’t use Windows 8 because it’s too hard.”

Bob: And everybody else here was using a Mac.

Ervin: Everybody else here was using a Mac. But at this point though, because the habit was going for me, I’d no longer have Windows 7 to go back to.

Bob: Now, it actually opened up a whole window.

Ervin: I’ll try something different now. So, now, I’m on a Mac.

Chris: Wow. So, it’s not to hate on Windows and love on Apple, that type of thing. So, you’re talking about, there’s literally one moment at which you were unhooked from that habit. Where it’s like, things have gotten bad enough where I just need to come to realization, that, I can’t, what are the words? I can’t support this habit or this habit will not allow me to make any progress. Because all I can do is go back. You weren’t going back to Windows 7 because that’s awkward.

Ervin: It was awkward, I couldn’t use it. And I knew that there was no future in it. They gave me no way to support my habit. So, at this point, for the worst metaphor ever, I’m looking for a new dealer. And so, at this point, I’m at Mac’s door. And it’s like “Sure. You know what? I can’t go home. I guess we’ll give you a try now.”

From iTunes to Pandora: how jobs change over time

Bob: I can’t go backwards. Because you know what? They’re not going to support me. Eventually, they’re not going to be able to support me. So, I was just thinking about it. The thing that’s interesting is, I’m a big iTunes user and that kind of stuff. And I used to buy CD’s, I downloaded them all, I’ve got 10,000 songs in my iTunes now, because, I forget what it’s called, Match. So, there’s no CD stores left anymore, so I go to iTunes. But what I’m finding is, over the last six months, I haven’t bought music. And what I’ve been doing is, been switching over to Pandora. It went from the notion of “Do I need to own the music”? to “I just want to listen to the music.” And so, what happens is, I probably have 200 stations on Pandora. Because I have very different eclectic music tastes. But the notion is that, where before, it’s actually harder for me to find music in iTunes than it is for me to find on Pandora by picking the Pandora thing. So, this whole notion of “I always want to own my music. This is my music.” And now, it’s to the point of “No, I owe my moods around what music I want to listen to.” And to be honest, it’s stopped my habit of buying iTunes music. The thing is, I do buy TV shows and some other things, still. But the notion is that, you could say I was a music addict. I was buying 6, 10, 15 albums a month. The thing that was interesting is I could never find myself buying a song. My habit was buying a CD. And when you’d bought a CD, you’d buy a CD to buy a song. And somewhere in that CD, you’d find three other songs you liked but you never knew. So, it’s like “You know what? I’ll buy the whole CD.” Now, it’s to the point where I let Pandora help me shop. It helps shape up what I want to do. And so, there are certain songs that I’ll hear where it’s like “This is a good gear-up song. This is a good song when I’m working out.” And I actually buy it on iTunes. And I’ve probably bought a song or two on iTunes because I want to put the song in a situation. But for my general listening purposes, I’ve literally probably abandoned iTunes for Pandora.

Chris: It’s interesting you say that. So, we’re wrapping down, not to totally digress, but we’re wrapping down the wine project right now which I know has been a huge success. So, tons of good feedback from, almost everybody that’s done interviews.

Bob: That was crazy, by the way.

Chris: Which is fantastic. We’re going to pick the next topic. We’re going to pick multiple topics. We’re kind of up in the air. But I think the music space may be very interesting. Because I think the delivery and the fact that we have these web radio alternatives. So, I’m similar to you. I’ve gone totally to streaming Internet radio like Pandora. And I will literally, if I have an itch to hear a song, I will pay the 99 cents. Like getting in my car on the drive home from the office today. If I feel like, not that I’m spending thousands of dollars of month, but I’ll buy the song to play right now. And it’s not the fact that I’ll own it for later. But it’s like “I really want to hear this song right now and 99 cents is not that big of a deal. It’s 99 cents, I’ll spend $5 in gas on the way home.” But it’s not the ownership, it’s just the access.

Bob: But I think, in the beginning. Because it was coming from records to CD’s to “Hey, you own a CD and it’s physical.” So, I think it gets to the progression of how jobs change. And so, the notion is, because now, it’s virtual and of course, you own it. The thing is is that you don’t own anything physical. And so, the notion of now, you couldn’t have taken the leap from CD’s to Pandora. That’s where everybody else went. They went to a subscription-type service. But iTunes actually has enabled it to make the subscription service. So, literally, I’ve gotten rid of my satellite radio. There’s a whole bunch of thing that I’ve fired, basically, because I’ve got Pandora. To be honest, music for me is about my mood. It’s about helping me either get into a mood or get out of a mood and it’s the transition. So, consumption of music is a really interesting thing.

Why this is generational, not demographic

Chris: So, we might the do the project. The other thing about it, I’m working on a couple of other projects. As much as we say we don’t like to segment using demographic information, the fact of the matter is it applies to situations. So, one of these things and I’m stating the obvious for people that follow media and this whole movement. But it’s like, we’re going to come upon a generation very quickly. Your kids, who have never physically owned media. Everything exists on the device, everything’s on the cloud, why would I buy a song when it streams all the time? Because I’ve never held a record, held a CD, held a tape.

Bob: They’ve never had the idea of ownership. Because at the end of the day, they’re using my account. So, my kids have no concept of ownership.

Chris: So, they’ll end up buying a song on their own credit card at one point. What differences in ownership, as opposed to just paying a subscription to an Internet radio. It comes down to access and timing and that sort of thing. So, I think that will change.

Bob: So, the imagery that comes to mind, then. It’s very interesting. It’s like I’m dating myself. But it’s the notion of having a physical, vinyl album. And having to treat it with such care. Because if you scratched it and it skipped. When you owned a record and you scratched it or broke, my one album is the original Boston album. I remember scratching it and having to literally ride my bike to go get…so that’s the notion of me of owning music.

Chris: You possess it.

Bob: It’s part of me. And when it goes away, it’s like “Oh, my God. I’ve gotta have it.” And so, the notion is like “Yeah, you can just buy another.” It’s this disposability that just changes. So, it’s clearly generational. I don’t think it’s demographic data. I think it’s the fact that if you just look at the accumulation of experiences, the kids today are coming from a different perspective. That they have no notion of what it’s like to scratch an album and ruin something and have it be precious. So, it’s not that it’s demographic data. It’s that they don’t have those experiences.

Chris: The reason that I reason that I caveated to demographic data is that people will go into it and say “People who are in their sixties and seventies will buy tapes and young kids will buy iTunes songs.” When I divide start to divide by age, I don’t want people to grouping consumers that way. I just want them to think about the impact that, never having owned physical media might have on future consumption.

Bob: But that’s where it gets back to. That demographics like age might make the segment. But it’s not the real meaning. The real meaning is they didn’t have these experiences. And so, it happens to capture it, but they don’t why it’s captured in it. And so, it’s the causality that’s really important.

“That demographics like age might make the segment. But it’s not the real meaning. The real meaning is they didn’t have these experiences.”Bob Moesta

Ervin: So, if you were setting up the screener, you wouldn’t set it up “Give me your age.” You would ask the question “Have you ever owned physical media”?

Bob: No, I wouldn’t put in physical media, but a reel to reel, or an 8-track.

Chris: So, part of it around the screener. Within 100 or within 20, how many CD’s do you own? How many records do you own? If I was going to screen, I want to get a feel for, did you live in that era? You’re in Germany. Somewhere, there, are boxes of albums with jazz. And I want to get a feel for, how can I bucket you? Were you a collector? Were you an avid CD buyer? Were you in that tape thing? So, I was born in the late seventies, everything is a tape. If I’m going to screen, I want to get those buckets. Or I’ve never bought a CD. It’s like, all right, how do I kind of talk to a swath of people? So, I’ll say, Ervin, great. The smoker analogy is fantastic. I think that’s something people can use when they think of how to describe the energy that goes on in the consumer when they’re affected by that habit of the present. I think that was really helpful. I think the Roomba one is another good one. Especially for everyone at the Switch workshop that can reflect on that. We’ll be back next week. We’ll finally have Amrita [SP] on the show. Scheduling has been, mostly on our side, it’s been difficult. But we’re excited to hear what she’s been doing since the Switch workshop at 37 signals.

Ervin: And also, if you’re interested in being interviewed on one of these episodes or you’ve come to a Switch workshop and kind of just want to talk through what your experience has been, reach out to me either via Twitter or e-mail. And let’s discuss it and see if we can work if we can work you in.

Bob: What’s your Twitter?

Ervin: Twitter is @ervinfowlkes. E-R-V-I-N F-O-W-L-K-E-S. I need to shorten that.

Chris: Yep. So, you can hit him up. You can follow me @chriscbs and bob@bmoesta. M-O-E-S-T-A. We’ll see you in a week.